need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Hi, as the recent 2 questions have shown (ldaps auth and ping only device monitoring) users have the same questions over and over. Currently, this system Observium uses for email lists (imho) is not cutting it. There is no place (that I now of) that we can search for old solutions, the emails don't seem to be archived anywhere.
Have you considered switching off this to a discussion board software? I think it would be better for all.
Just my 2 cents. tony
Please, no. I’d much rather see the same questions over and over and over – the crucial distinction is that emails come to me with zero effort, whereas I must devote significant time & energy to visiting an online forum/BB. And then I’m basically reading emails in a web browser instead of a fully-featured email client, which is the worst of both worlds.
FWIW, the pfSense project’s recent experience was that while converting to a web forum noticeably increased engagement (mostly, I firmly believe, by users too young to appreciate the advantages of email, ahem ?? ) it did absolutely nothing to stop the same old questions from being asked again and again and again and again (and again and again) – in my opinion, it made the situation it even worse because it provided a forum accessible to even more new users than before. Two defining characteristics of new users, at least in infrastructure projects, seem to be that (a) they don’t know where best to look for information, nor (b) how to recognize/interpret/apply what they do find.
A mailing list archive exists but the public URL (404 Not Found (memetic.org)http://postman.memetic.org/pipermail/observium/) is broken. Anyone subscribed to the list can see the “private” view at The observium Archives (memetic.org)http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/observium/ – you’ll need your mailman password for this, which mailman will happily send to you upon request. This is a suboptimal situation, but speaking as a mailman admin, mailman itself is suboptimal, so… :shrug:
I’ve no idea who runs the mailing list server at memetic.org, but perhaps that’s something the other Adam could ask to have fixed so we could have searchable/linkable archives?
FWIW, there is an FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions - Observiumhttps://docs.observium.org/faq/. I don’t find it to be a great resource, as I don’t think I’ve ever had any of those questions, but I assume they made their way onto that page for a good reason. -Adam
Adam Thompson Consultant, Infrastructure Services [MERLIN] 100 - 135 Innovation Drive Winnipeg, MB R3T 6A8 (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only) https://www.merlin.mb.cahttps://www.merlin.mb.ca/ [cid:image002.png@01D85F8E.E060BAA0]Chat with me on Teamshttps://teams.microsoft.com/l/chat/0/0?users=athompson@merlin.mb.ca
From: observium observium-bounces@observium.org On Behalf Of Tony Guadagno via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 7:23 AM To: Observium observium@observium.org Cc: Tony Guadagno tonyg@guadagno.org Subject: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Hi, as the recent 2 questions have shown (ldaps auth and ping only device monitoring) users have the same questions over and over. Currently, this system Observium uses for email lists (imho) is not cutting it. There is no place (that I now of) that we can search for old solutions, the emails don’t seem to be archived anywhere.
Have you considered switching off this to a discussion board software? I think it would be better for all.
Just my 2 cents. tony
Suboptimal is certainly one way to describe mailman. :D
These days a majority of questions go via our Discord, but LDAP is a somewhat special case in that it’s not something we use or understand, so we can’t give much help on making it work.
Adam.
From: observium observium-bounces@observium.org On Behalf Of Adam Thompson via observium Sent: 04 May 2022 14:56 To: Observium observium@observium.org Cc: Adam Thompson athompson@merlin.mb.ca Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Please, no. I’d much rather see the same questions over and over and over – the crucial distinction is that emails come to me with zero effort, whereas I must devote significant time & energy to visiting an online forum/BB. And then I’m basically reading emails in a web browser instead of a fully-featured email client, which is the worst of both worlds.
FWIW, the pfSense project’s recent experience was that while converting to a web forum noticeably increased engagement (mostly, I firmly believe, by users too young to appreciate the advantages of email, ahem 😉 ) it did absolutely nothing to stop the same old questions from being asked again and again and again and again (and again and again) – in my opinion, it made the situation it even worse because it provided a forum accessible to even more new users than before. Two defining characteristics of new users, at least in infrastructure projects, seem to be that (a) they don’t know where best to look for information, nor (b) how to recognize/interpret/apply what they do find.
A mailing list archive exists but the public URL (404 Not Found (memetic.org) http://postman.memetic.org/pipermail/observium/ ) is broken. Anyone subscribed to the list can see the “private” view at The observium Archives (memetic.org) http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/observium/ – you’ll need your mailman password for this, which mailman will happily send to you upon request. This is a suboptimal situation, but speaking as a mailman admin, mailman itself is suboptimal, so… :shrug:
I’ve no idea who runs the mailing list server at memetic.org, but perhaps that’s something the other Adam could ask to have fixed so we could have searchable/linkable archives?
FWIW, there is an FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions - Observium https://docs.observium.org/faq/ . I don’t find it to be a great resource, as I don’t think I’ve ever had any of those questions, but I assume they made their way onto that page for a good reason.
-Adam
Adam Thompson
Consultant, Infrastructure Services
100 - 135 Innovation Drive
Winnipeg, MB R3T 6A8
(204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
https://www.merlin.mb.ca/ https://www.merlin.mb.ca
https://teams.microsoft.com/l/chat/0/0?users=athompson@merlin.mb.ca Chat with me on Teams
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.org mailto:observium-bounces@observium.org > On Behalf Of Tony Guadagno via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 7:23 AM To: Observium <observium@observium.org mailto:observium@observium.org > Cc: Tony Guadagno <tonyg@guadagno.org mailto:tonyg@guadagno.org > Subject: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Hi, as the recent 2 questions have shown (ldaps auth and ping only device monitoring) users have the same questions over and over. Currently, this system Observium uses for email lists (imho) is not cutting it. There is no place (that I now of) that we can search for old solutions, the emails don’t seem to be archived anywhere.
Have you considered switching off this to a discussion board software? I think it would be better for all.
Just my 2 cents.
tony
…sitting here not even aware you had a Discord server. Huh. Yeah, I see the link there, now that I look. That will have approximately all the same problems that IRC has/had. Still better than a web-based version of a newsgroup IMHO.
In short, all user support is a, er, suboptimal experience for developers. Especially for free and/or open-source products. Been there, have the scars.
-Adam
Adam Thompson Consultant, Infrastructure Services [MERLIN] 100 - 135 Innovation Drive Winnipeg, MB R3T 6A8 (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only) https://www.merlin.mb.cahttps://www.merlin.mb.ca/ [cid:image003.png@01D85FDB.DA99F8F0]Chat with me on Teamshttps://teams.microsoft.com/l/chat/0/0?users=athompson@merlin.mb.ca
From: observium observium-bounces@observium.org On Behalf Of adama--- via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 9:00 AM To: 'Observium' observium@observium.org Cc: adama@observium.org Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Suboptimal is certainly one way to describe mailman. :D
These days a majority of questions go via our Discord, but LDAP is a somewhat special case in that it’s not something we use or understand, so we can’t give much help on making it work.
Adam.
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.orgmailto:observium-bounces@observium.org> On Behalf Of Adam Thompson via observium Sent: 04 May 2022 14:56 To: Observium <observium@observium.orgmailto:observium@observium.org> Cc: Adam Thompson <athompson@merlin.mb.camailto:athompson@merlin.mb.ca> Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Please, no. I’d much rather see the same questions over and over and over – the crucial distinction is that emails come to me with zero effort, whereas I must devote significant time & energy to visiting an online forum/BB. And then I’m basically reading emails in a web browser instead of a fully-featured email client, which is the worst of both worlds.
FWIW, the pfSense project’s recent experience was that while converting to a web forum noticeably increased engagement (mostly, I firmly believe, by users too young to appreciate the advantages of email, ahem 😉 ) it did absolutely nothing to stop the same old questions from being asked again and again and again and again (and again and again) – in my opinion, it made the situation it even worse because it provided a forum accessible to even more new users than before. Two defining characteristics of new users, at least in infrastructure projects, seem to be that (a) they don’t know where best to look for information, nor (b) how to recognize/interpret/apply what they do find.
A mailing list archive exists but the public URL (404 Not Found (memetic.org)http://postman.memetic.org/pipermail/observium/) is broken. Anyone subscribed to the list can see the “private” view at The observium Archives (memetic.org)http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/observium/ – you’ll need your mailman password for this, which mailman will happily send to you upon request. This is a suboptimal situation, but speaking as a mailman admin, mailman itself is suboptimal, so… :shrug:
I’ve no idea who runs the mailing list server at memetic.org, but perhaps that’s something the other Adam could ask to have fixed so we could have searchable/linkable archives?
FWIW, there is an FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions - Observiumhttps://docs.observium.org/faq/. I don’t find it to be a great resource, as I don’t think I’ve ever had any of those questions, but I assume they made their way onto that page for a good reason.
-Adam
Adam Thompson Consultant, Infrastructure Services [MERLIN] 100 - 135 Innovation Drive Winnipeg, MB R3T 6A8 (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only) https://www.merlin.mb.cahttps://www.merlin.mb.ca/ [cid:image003.png@01D85FDB.DA99F8F0]Chat with me on Teamshttps://teams.microsoft.com/l/chat/0/0?users=athompson@merlin.mb.ca
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.orgmailto:observium-bounces@observium.org> On Behalf Of Tony Guadagno via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 7:23 AM To: Observium <observium@observium.orgmailto:observium@observium.org> Cc: Tony Guadagno <tonyg@guadagno.orgmailto:tonyg@guadagno.org> Subject: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Hi, as the recent 2 questions have shown (ldaps auth and ping only device monitoring) users have the same questions over and over. Currently, this system Observium uses for email lists (imho) is not cutting it. There is no place (that I now of) that we can search for old solutions, the emails don’t seem to be archived anywhere.
Have you considered switching off this to a discussion board software? I think it would be better for all.
Just my 2 cents. tony
AdamT (too many adam’s …lol) I think the past couple of weeks there have been several discussions on ping only devices and ldap that have just popped out of existence because it is in email and there is no repository for this knowledge. After a while, the people who answer the questions will get tired of answering them and then we have to start from scratch again. I feel strongly there needs to be a searchable repo for this info. As for the pfSense example, I don’t know about that but I know from my own experience that I do search old posts on other projects regularly and it does reduce my need to start new threads….maybe I am the only one. Also, while many users use Observium as a free product, some of us do not, I have several of my customers paying for the pro version so think that deserves a step up in support.
Adam (not T) discord is fine but if you are not on at the right time with the right support person, you don’t get your question answered. In that sense it is somewhat worse than email.
I still feel that a web discussion board would be helpful…..just my 2 cents
From: observium observium-bounces@observium.org On Behalf Of Adam Thompson via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 6:37 PM To: Observium observium@observium.org Cc: Adam Thompson athompson@merlin.mb.ca Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
…sitting here not even aware you had a Discord server. Huh. Yeah, I see the link there, now that I look. That will have approximately all the same problems that IRC has/had. Still better than a web-based version of a newsgroup IMHO.
In short, all user support is a, er, suboptimal experience for developers. Especially for free and/or open-source products. Been there, have the scars.
-Adam
Adam Thompson Consultant, Infrastructure Services [MERLIN] 100 - 135 Innovation Drive Winnipeg, MB R3T 6A8 (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only) https://www.merlin.mb.cahttps://www.merlin.mb.ca/ [cid:image003.png@01D86063.E95ACB20]Chat with me on Teamshttps://teams.microsoft.com/l/chat/0/0?users=athompson@merlin.mb.ca
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.orgmailto:observium-bounces@observium.org> On Behalf Of adama--- via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 9:00 AM To: 'Observium' <observium@observium.orgmailto:observium@observium.org> Cc: adama@observium.orgmailto:adama@observium.org Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Suboptimal is certainly one way to describe mailman. :D
These days a majority of questions go via our Discord, but LDAP is a somewhat special case in that it’s not something we use or understand, so we can’t give much help on making it work.
Adam.
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.orgmailto:observium-bounces@observium.org> On Behalf Of Adam Thompson via observium Sent: 04 May 2022 14:56 To: Observium <observium@observium.orgmailto:observium@observium.org> Cc: Adam Thompson <athompson@merlin.mb.camailto:athompson@merlin.mb.ca> Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Please, no. I’d much rather see the same questions over and over and over – the crucial distinction is that emails come to me with zero effort, whereas I must devote significant time & energy to visiting an online forum/BB. And then I’m basically reading emails in a web browser instead of a fully-featured email client, which is the worst of both worlds.
FWIW, the pfSense project’s recent experience was that while converting to a web forum noticeably increased engagement (mostly, I firmly believe, by users too young to appreciate the advantages of email, ahem 😉 ) it did absolutely nothing to stop the same old questions from being asked again and again and again and again (and again and again) – in my opinion, it made the situation it even worse because it provided a forum accessible to even more new users than before. Two defining characteristics of new users, at least in infrastructure projects, seem to be that (a) they don’t know where best to look for information, nor (b) how to recognize/interpret/apply what they do find.
A mailing list archive exists but the public URL (404 Not Found (memetic.org)http://postman.memetic.org/pipermail/observium/) is broken. Anyone subscribed to the list can see the “private” view at The observium Archives (memetic.org)http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/observium/ – you’ll need your mailman password for this, which mailman will happily send to you upon request. This is a suboptimal situation, but speaking as a mailman admin, mailman itself is suboptimal, so… :shrug:
I’ve no idea who runs the mailing list server at memetic.org, but perhaps that’s something the other Adam could ask to have fixed so we could have searchable/linkable archives?
FWIW, there is an FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions - Observiumhttps://docs.observium.org/faq/. I don’t find it to be a great resource, as I don’t think I’ve ever had any of those questions, but I assume they made their way onto that page for a good reason.
-Adam
Adam Thompson Consultant, Infrastructure Services [MERLIN] 100 - 135 Innovation Drive Winnipeg, MB R3T 6A8 (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only) https://www.merlin.mb.cahttps://www.merlin.mb.ca/ [cid:image003.png@01D86063.E95ACB20]Chat with me on Teamshttps://teams.microsoft.com/l/chat/0/0?users=athompson@merlin.mb.ca
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.orgmailto:observium-bounces@observium.org> On Behalf Of Tony Guadagno via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 7:23 AM To: Observium <observium@observium.orgmailto:observium@observium.org> Cc: Tony Guadagno <tonyg@guadagno.orgmailto:tonyg@guadagno.org> Subject: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Hi, as the recent 2 questions have shown (ldaps auth and ping only device monitoring) users have the same questions over and over. Currently, this system Observium uses for email lists (imho) is not cutting it. There is no place (that I now of) that we can search for old solutions, the emails don’t seem to be archived anywhere.
Have you considered switching off this to a discussion board software? I think it would be better for all.
Just my 2 cents. tony
The ping only stuff is literally in the docs though 😃
Adam.
From: observium observium-bounces@observium.org On Behalf Of Tony Guadagno via observium Sent: 05 May 2022 14:39 To: Observium observium@observium.org Cc: Tony Guadagno tonyg@guadagno.org Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
AdamT (too many adam’s …lol) I think the past couple of weeks there have been several discussions on ping only devices and ldap that have just popped out of existence because it is in email and there is no repository for this knowledge. After a while, the people who answer the questions will get tired of answering them and then we have to start from scratch again.
I feel strongly there needs to be a searchable repo for this info. As for the pfSense example, I don’t know about that but I know from my own experience that I do search old posts on other projects regularly and it does reduce my need to start new threads….maybe I am the only one. Also, while many users use Observium as a free product, some of us do not, I have several of my customers paying for the pro version so think that deserves a step up in support.
Adam (not T) discord is fine but if you are not on at the right time with the right support person, you don’t get your question answered. In that sense it is somewhat worse than email.
I still feel that a web discussion board would be helpful…..just my 2 cents
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.org mailto:observium-bounces@observium.org > On Behalf Of Adam Thompson via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 6:37 PM To: Observium <observium@observium.org mailto:observium@observium.org > Cc: Adam Thompson <athompson@merlin.mb.ca mailto:athompson@merlin.mb.ca > Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
…sitting here not even aware you had a Discord server. Huh. Yeah, I see the link there, now that I look. That will have approximately all the same problems that IRC has/had. Still better than a web-based version of a newsgroup IMHO.
In short, all user support is a, er, suboptimal experience for developers. Especially for free and/or open-source products. Been there, have the scars.
-Adam
Adam Thompson
Consultant, Infrastructure Services
100 - 135 Innovation Drive
Winnipeg, MB R3T 6A8
(204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
https://www.merlin.mb.ca/ https://www.merlin.mb.ca
https://teams.microsoft.com/l/chat/0/0?users=athompson@merlin.mb.ca Chat with me on Teams
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.org mailto:observium-bounces@observium.org > On Behalf Of adama--- via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 9:00 AM To: 'Observium' <observium@observium.org mailto:observium@observium.org > Cc: adama@observium.org mailto:adama@observium.org Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Suboptimal is certainly one way to describe mailman. :D
These days a majority of questions go via our Discord, but LDAP is a somewhat special case in that it’s not something we use or understand, so we can’t give much help on making it work.
Adam.
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.org mailto:observium-bounces@observium.org > On Behalf Of Adam Thompson via observium Sent: 04 May 2022 14:56 To: Observium <observium@observium.org mailto:observium@observium.org > Cc: Adam Thompson <athompson@merlin.mb.ca mailto:athompson@merlin.mb.ca > Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Please, no. I’d much rather see the same questions over and over and over – the crucial distinction is that emails come to me with zero effort, whereas I must devote significant time & energy to visiting an online forum/BB. And then I’m basically reading emails in a web browser instead of a fully-featured email client, which is the worst of both worlds.
FWIW, the pfSense project’s recent experience was that while converting to a web forum noticeably increased engagement (mostly, I firmly believe, by users too young to appreciate the advantages of email, ahem 😉 ) it did absolutely nothing to stop the same old questions from being asked again and again and again and again (and again and again) – in my opinion, it made the situation it even worse because it provided a forum accessible to even more new users than before. Two defining characteristics of new users, at least in infrastructure projects, seem to be that (a) they don’t know where best to look for information, nor (b) how to recognize/interpret/apply what they do find.
A mailing list archive exists but the public URL (404 Not Found (memetic.org) http://postman.memetic.org/pipermail/observium/ ) is broken. Anyone subscribed to the list can see the “private” view at The observium Archives (memetic.org) http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/observium/ – you’ll need your mailman password for this, which mailman will happily send to you upon request. This is a suboptimal situation, but speaking as a mailman admin, mailman itself is suboptimal, so… :shrug:
I’ve no idea who runs the mailing list server at memetic.org, but perhaps that’s something the other Adam could ask to have fixed so we could have searchable/linkable archives?
FWIW, there is an FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions - Observium https://docs.observium.org/faq/ . I don’t find it to be a great resource, as I don’t think I’ve ever had any of those questions, but I assume they made their way onto that page for a good reason.
-Adam
Adam Thompson
Consultant, Infrastructure Services
100 - 135 Innovation Drive
Winnipeg, MB R3T 6A8
(204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
https://www.merlin.mb.ca/ https://www.merlin.mb.ca
https://teams.microsoft.com/l/chat/0/0?users=athompson@merlin.mb.ca Chat with me on Teams
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.org mailto:observium-bounces@observium.org > On Behalf Of Tony Guadagno via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 7:23 AM To: Observium <observium@observium.org mailto:observium@observium.org > Cc: Tony Guadagno <tonyg@guadagno.org mailto:tonyg@guadagno.org > Subject: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Hi, as the recent 2 questions have shown (ldaps auth and ping only device monitoring) users have the same questions over and over. Currently, this system Observium uses for email lists (imho) is not cutting it. There is no place (that I now of) that we can search for old solutions, the emails don’t seem to be archived anywhere.
Have you considered switching off this to a discussion board software? I think it would be better for all.
Just my 2 cents.
tony
I have been thinking and I have an idea to piss off more people…lol…I think that for pro and enterprise customers, there should be a ticketing system….
Flame on!
From: observium observium-bounces@observium.org On Behalf Of adama--- via observium Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2022 5:09 PM To: 'Observium' observium@observium.org Cc: adama@observium.org Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
The ping only stuff is literally in the docs though 😃
Adam.
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.orgmailto:observium-bounces@observium.org> On Behalf Of Tony Guadagno via observium Sent: 05 May 2022 14:39 To: Observium <observium@observium.orgmailto:observium@observium.org> Cc: Tony Guadagno <tonyg@guadagno.orgmailto:tonyg@guadagno.org> Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
AdamT (too many adam’s …lol) I think the past couple of weeks there have been several discussions on ping only devices and ldap that have just popped out of existence because it is in email and there is no repository for this knowledge. After a while, the people who answer the questions will get tired of answering them and then we have to start from scratch again. I feel strongly there needs to be a searchable repo for this info. As for the pfSense example, I don’t know about that but I know from my own experience that I do search old posts on other projects regularly and it does reduce my need to start new threads….maybe I am the only one. Also, while many users use Observium as a free product, some of us do not, I have several of my customers paying for the pro version so think that deserves a step up in support.
Adam (not T) discord is fine but if you are not on at the right time with the right support person, you don’t get your question answered. In that sense it is somewhat worse than email.
I still feel that a web discussion board would be helpful…..just my 2 cents
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.orgmailto:observium-bounces@observium.org> On Behalf Of Adam Thompson via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 6:37 PM To: Observium <observium@observium.orgmailto:observium@observium.org> Cc: Adam Thompson <athompson@merlin.mb.camailto:athompson@merlin.mb.ca> Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
…sitting here not even aware you had a Discord server. Huh. Yeah, I see the link there, now that I look. That will have approximately all the same problems that IRC has/had. Still better than a web-based version of a newsgroup IMHO.
In short, all user support is a, er, suboptimal experience for developers. Especially for free and/or open-source products. Been there, have the scars.
-Adam
Adam Thompson Consultant, Infrastructure Services [MERLIN] 100 - 135 Innovation Drive Winnipeg, MB R3T 6A8 (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only) https://www.merlin.mb.cahttps://www.merlin.mb.ca/ [cid:image002.png@01D860AA.87AF9E90]Chat with me on Teamshttps://teams.microsoft.com/l/chat/0/0?users=athompson@merlin.mb.ca
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.orgmailto:observium-bounces@observium.org> On Behalf Of adama--- via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 9:00 AM To: 'Observium' <observium@observium.orgmailto:observium@observium.org> Cc: adama@observium.orgmailto:adama@observium.org Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Suboptimal is certainly one way to describe mailman. :D
These days a majority of questions go via our Discord, but LDAP is a somewhat special case in that it’s not something we use or understand, so we can’t give much help on making it work.
Adam.
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.orgmailto:observium-bounces@observium.org> On Behalf Of Adam Thompson via observium Sent: 04 May 2022 14:56 To: Observium <observium@observium.orgmailto:observium@observium.org> Cc: Adam Thompson <athompson@merlin.mb.camailto:athompson@merlin.mb.ca> Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Please, no. I’d much rather see the same questions over and over and over – the crucial distinction is that emails come to me with zero effort, whereas I must devote significant time & energy to visiting an online forum/BB. And then I’m basically reading emails in a web browser instead of a fully-featured email client, which is the worst of both worlds.
FWIW, the pfSense project’s recent experience was that while converting to a web forum noticeably increased engagement (mostly, I firmly believe, by users too young to appreciate the advantages of email, ahem 😉 ) it did absolutely nothing to stop the same old questions from being asked again and again and again and again (and again and again) – in my opinion, it made the situation it even worse because it provided a forum accessible to even more new users than before. Two defining characteristics of new users, at least in infrastructure projects, seem to be that (a) they don’t know where best to look for information, nor (b) how to recognize/interpret/apply what they do find.
A mailing list archive exists but the public URL (404 Not Found (memetic.org)http://postman.memetic.org/pipermail/observium/) is broken. Anyone subscribed to the list can see the “private” view at The observium Archives (memetic.org)http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/observium/ – you’ll need your mailman password for this, which mailman will happily send to you upon request. This is a suboptimal situation, but speaking as a mailman admin, mailman itself is suboptimal, so… :shrug:
I’ve no idea who runs the mailing list server at memetic.org, but perhaps that’s something the other Adam could ask to have fixed so we could have searchable/linkable archives?
FWIW, there is an FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions - Observiumhttps://docs.observium.org/faq/. I don’t find it to be a great resource, as I don’t think I’ve ever had any of those questions, but I assume they made their way onto that page for a good reason.
-Adam
Adam Thompson Consultant, Infrastructure Services [MERLIN] 100 - 135 Innovation Drive Winnipeg, MB R3T 6A8 (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only) https://www.merlin.mb.cahttps://www.merlin.mb.ca/ [cid:image002.png@01D860AA.87AF9E90]Chat with me on Teamshttps://teams.microsoft.com/l/chat/0/0?users=athompson@merlin.mb.ca
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.orgmailto:observium-bounces@observium.org> On Behalf Of Tony Guadagno via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 7:23 AM To: Observium <observium@observium.orgmailto:observium@observium.org> Cc: Tony Guadagno <tonyg@guadagno.orgmailto:tonyg@guadagno.org> Subject: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Hi, as the recent 2 questions have shown (ldaps auth and ping only device monitoring) users have the same questions over and over. Currently, this system Observium uses for email lists (imho) is not cutting it. There is no place (that I now of) that we can search for old solutions, the emails don’t seem to be archived anywhere.
Have you considered switching off this to a discussion board software? I think it would be better for all.
Just my 2 cents. tony
As a commercial customer, I agree… but I also recognize that Observium Ltd. has a very tiny staff, and I’m loathe to add any more activities that will take away time developing the product, and the existence of a ticket system kinda-sorta implies an SLA, at least at the “we’ll look at it, eventually” level. Right now, the support SLA is essentially “well, you can ask…” Ultimately, I’m on the fence – I’d love a ticketing system, but I’m not sure it’s affordable (in human terms, not $$$). (…semi-hypocritically sending this email from a noticeably larger org that also doesn’t have a ticket system.) -Adam
Adam Thompson Consultant, Infrastructure Services [MERLIN] 100 - 135 Innovation Drive Winnipeg, MB R3T 6A8 (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only) https://www.merlin.mb.cahttps://www.merlin.mb.ca/ [cid:image005.png@01D860C0.0A5E2900]Chat with me on Teamshttps://teams.microsoft.com/l/chat/0/0?users=athompson@merlin.mb.ca
From: observium observium-bounces@observium.org On Behalf Of Tony Guadagno via observium Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2022 5:04 PM To: Observium observium@observium.org Cc: Tony Guadagno tonyg@guadagno.org Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
I have been thinking and I have an idea to piss off more people…lol…I think that for pro and enterprise customers, there should be a ticketing system….
Flame on!
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.orgmailto:observium-bounces@observium.org> On Behalf Of adama--- via observium Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2022 5:09 PM To: 'Observium' <observium@observium.orgmailto:observium@observium.org> Cc: adama@observium.orgmailto:adama@observium.org Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
The ping only stuff is literally in the docs though 😃
Adam.
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.orgmailto:observium-bounces@observium.org> On Behalf Of Tony Guadagno via observium Sent: 05 May 2022 14:39 To: Observium <observium@observium.orgmailto:observium@observium.org> Cc: Tony Guadagno <tonyg@guadagno.orgmailto:tonyg@guadagno.org> Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
AdamT (too many adam’s …lol) I think the past couple of weeks there have been several discussions on ping only devices and ldap that have just popped out of existence because it is in email and there is no repository for this knowledge. After a while, the people who answer the questions will get tired of answering them and then we have to start from scratch again. I feel strongly there needs to be a searchable repo for this info. As for the pfSense example, I don’t know about that but I know from my own experience that I do search old posts on other projects regularly and it does reduce my need to start new threads….maybe I am the only one. Also, while many users use Observium as a free product, some of us do not, I have several of my customers paying for the pro version so think that deserves a step up in support.
Adam (not T) discord is fine but if you are not on at the right time with the right support person, you don’t get your question answered. In that sense it is somewhat worse than email.
I still feel that a web discussion board would be helpful…..just my 2 cents
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.orgmailto:observium-bounces@observium.org> On Behalf Of Adam Thompson via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 6:37 PM To: Observium <observium@observium.orgmailto:observium@observium.org> Cc: Adam Thompson <athompson@merlin.mb.camailto:athompson@merlin.mb.ca> Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
…sitting here not even aware you had a Discord server. Huh. Yeah, I see the link there, now that I look. That will have approximately all the same problems that IRC has/had. Still better than a web-based version of a newsgroup IMHO.
In short, all user support is a, er, suboptimal experience for developers. Especially for free and/or open-source products. Been there, have the scars.
-Adam
Adam Thompson Consultant, Infrastructure Services [MERLIN] 100 - 135 Innovation Drive Winnipeg, MB R3T 6A8 (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only) https://www.merlin.mb.cahttps://www.merlin.mb.ca/ [cid:image005.png@01D860C0.0A5E2900]Chat with me on Teamshttps://teams.microsoft.com/l/chat/0/0?users=athompson@merlin.mb.ca
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.orgmailto:observium-bounces@observium.org> On Behalf Of adama--- via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 9:00 AM To: 'Observium' <observium@observium.orgmailto:observium@observium.org> Cc: adama@observium.orgmailto:adama@observium.org Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Suboptimal is certainly one way to describe mailman. :D
These days a majority of questions go via our Discord, but LDAP is a somewhat special case in that it’s not something we use or understand, so we can’t give much help on making it work.
Adam.
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.orgmailto:observium-bounces@observium.org> On Behalf Of Adam Thompson via observium Sent: 04 May 2022 14:56 To: Observium <observium@observium.orgmailto:observium@observium.org> Cc: Adam Thompson <athompson@merlin.mb.camailto:athompson@merlin.mb.ca> Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Please, no. I’d much rather see the same questions over and over and over – the crucial distinction is that emails come to me with zero effort, whereas I must devote significant time & energy to visiting an online forum/BB. And then I’m basically reading emails in a web browser instead of a fully-featured email client, which is the worst of both worlds.
FWIW, the pfSense project’s recent experience was that while converting to a web forum noticeably increased engagement (mostly, I firmly believe, by users too young to appreciate the advantages of email, ahem 😉 ) it did absolutely nothing to stop the same old questions from being asked again and again and again and again (and again and again) – in my opinion, it made the situation it even worse because it provided a forum accessible to even more new users than before. Two defining characteristics of new users, at least in infrastructure projects, seem to be that (a) they don’t know where best to look for information, nor (b) how to recognize/interpret/apply what they do find.
A mailing list archive exists but the public URL (404 Not Found (memetic.org)http://postman.memetic.org/pipermail/observium/) is broken. Anyone subscribed to the list can see the “private” view at The observium Archives (memetic.org)http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/observium/ – you’ll need your mailman password for this, which mailman will happily send to you upon request. This is a suboptimal situation, but speaking as a mailman admin, mailman itself is suboptimal, so… :shrug:
I’ve no idea who runs the mailing list server at memetic.org, but perhaps that’s something the other Adam could ask to have fixed so we could have searchable/linkable archives?
FWIW, there is an FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions - Observiumhttps://docs.observium.org/faq/. I don’t find it to be a great resource, as I don’t think I’ve ever had any of those questions, but I assume they made their way onto that page for a good reason.
-Adam
Adam Thompson Consultant, Infrastructure Services [MERLIN] 100 - 135 Innovation Drive Winnipeg, MB R3T 6A8 (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only) https://www.merlin.mb.cahttps://www.merlin.mb.ca/ [cid:image005.png@01D860C0.0A5E2900]Chat with me on Teamshttps://teams.microsoft.com/l/chat/0/0?users=athompson@merlin.mb.ca
From: observium <observium-bounces@observium.orgmailto:observium-bounces@observium.org> On Behalf Of Tony Guadagno via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 7:23 AM To: Observium <observium@observium.orgmailto:observium@observium.org> Cc: Tony Guadagno <tonyg@guadagno.orgmailto:tonyg@guadagno.org> Subject: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Hi, as the recent 2 questions have shown (ldaps auth and ping only device monitoring) users have the same questions over and over. Currently, this system Observium uses for email lists (imho) is not cutting it. There is no place (that I now of) that we can search for old solutions, the emails don’t seem to be archived anywhere.
Have you considered switching off this to a discussion board software? I think it would be better for all.
Just my 2 cents. tony
The primary difference between Pro and Enterprise is that there is a ticketing system for Enterprise.
Most people still seem to prefer to just use discord (there’s a separate channel on there for Enterprise users too) though, presumably because it’s just more convenient, just like how slack and teams took over internal comms.
Observium was originally developed for use by ISPs, who at least in my market won’t ever really pay for support (smartnet? Pah, my routers all fell off lorries!), so the original Pro license was intended for and priced for that segment.
Enterprise is mostly intended for larger corps that tend to actively want to pay for support.
Support is really, really expensive to provide. You can spend an entire day or two chasing some impossible non-bug.
Adam.
Sent from my iPhone
On 6 May 2022, at 02:45, Adam Thompson via observium observium@observium.org wrote:
As a commercial customer, I agree… but I also recognize that Observium Ltd. has a very tiny staff, and I’m loathe to add any more activities that will take away time developing the product, and the existence of a ticket system kinda-sorta implies an SLA, at least at the “we’ll look at it, eventually” level. Right now, the support SLA is essentially “well, you can ask…” Ultimately, I’m on the fence – I’d love a ticketing system, but I’m not sure it’s affordable (in human terms, not $$$). (…semi-hypocritically sending this email from a noticeably larger org that also doesn’t have a ticket system.) -Adam
Adam Thompson Consultant, Infrastructure Services
100 - 135 Innovation Drive Winnipeg, MB R3T 6A8 (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only) https://www.merlin.mb.ca Chat with me on Teams
From: observium observium-bounces@observium.org On Behalf Of Tony Guadagno via observium Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2022 5:04 PM To: Observium observium@observium.org Cc: Tony Guadagno tonyg@guadagno.org Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
I have been thinking and I have an idea to piss off more people…lol…I think that for pro and enterprise customers, there should be a ticketing system….
Flame on!
From: observium observium-bounces@observium.org On Behalf Of adama--- via observium Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2022 5:09 PM To: 'Observium' observium@observium.org Cc: adama@observium.org Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
The ping only stuff is literally in the docs though 😃
Adam.
From: observium observium-bounces@observium.org On Behalf Of Tony Guadagno via observium Sent: 05 May 2022 14:39 To: Observium observium@observium.org Cc: Tony Guadagno tonyg@guadagno.org Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
AdamT (too many adam’s …lol) I think the past couple of weeks there have been several discussions on ping only devices and ldap that have just popped out of existence because it is in email and there is no repository for this knowledge. After a while, the people who answer the questions will get tired of answering them and then we have to start from scratch again. I feel strongly there needs to be a searchable repo for this info. As for the pfSense example, I don’t know about that but I know from my own experience that I do search old posts on other projects regularly and it does reduce my need to start new threads….maybe I am the only one. Also, while many users use Observium as a free product, some of us do not, I have several of my customers paying for the pro version so think that deserves a step up in support.
Adam (not T) discord is fine but if you are not on at the right time with the right support person, you don’t get your question answered. In that sense it is somewhat worse than email.
I still feel that a web discussion board would be helpful…..just my 2 cents
From: observium observium-bounces@observium.org On Behalf Of Adam Thompson via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 6:37 PM To: Observium observium@observium.org Cc: Adam Thompson athompson@merlin.mb.ca Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
…sitting here not even aware you had a Discord server. Huh. Yeah, I see the link there, now that I look. That will have approximately all the same problems that IRC has/had. Still better than a web-based version of a newsgroup IMHO.
In short, all user support is a, er, suboptimal experience for developers. Especially for free and/or open-source products. Been there, have the scars.
-Adam
Adam Thompson Consultant, Infrastructure Services
100 - 135 Innovation Drive Winnipeg, MB R3T 6A8 (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only) https://www.merlin.mb.ca Chat with me on Teams
From: observium observium-bounces@observium.org On Behalf Of adama--- via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 9:00 AM To: 'Observium' observium@observium.org Cc: adama@observium.org Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Suboptimal is certainly one way to describe mailman. :D
These days a majority of questions go via our Discord, but LDAP is a somewhat special case in that it’s not something we use or understand, so we can’t give much help on making it work.
Adam.
From: observium observium-bounces@observium.org On Behalf Of Adam Thompson via observium Sent: 04 May 2022 14:56 To: Observium observium@observium.org Cc: Adam Thompson athompson@merlin.mb.ca Subject: Re: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Please, no. I’d much rather see the same questions over and over and over – the crucial distinction is that emails come to me with zero effort, whereas I must devote significant time & energy to visiting an online forum/BB. And then I’m basically reading emails in a web browser instead of a fully-featured email client, which is the worst of both worlds.
FWIW, the pfSense project’s recent experience was that while converting to a web forum noticeably increased engagement (mostly, I firmly believe, by users too young to appreciate the advantages of email, ahem 😉 ) it did absolutely nothing to stop the same old questions from being asked again and again and again and again (and again and again) – in my opinion, it made the situation it even worse because it provided a forum accessible to even more new users than before. Two defining characteristics of new users, at least in infrastructure projects, seem to be that (a) they don’t know where best to look for information, nor (b) how to recognize/interpret/apply what they do find.
A mailing list archive exists but the public URL (404 Not Found (memetic.org)) is broken. Anyone subscribed to the list can see the “private” view at The observium Archives (memetic.org) – you’ll need your mailman password for this, which mailman will happily send to you upon request. This is a suboptimal situation, but speaking as a mailman admin, mailman itself is suboptimal, so… :shrug:
I’ve no idea who runs the mailing list server at memetic.org, but perhaps that’s something the other Adam could ask to have fixed so we could have searchable/linkable archives?
FWIW, there is an FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions - Observium. I don’t find it to be a great resource, as I don’t think I’ve ever had any of those questions, but I assume they made their way onto that page for a good reason.
-Adam
Adam Thompson Consultant, Infrastructure Services
100 - 135 Innovation Drive Winnipeg, MB R3T 6A8 (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only) https://www.merlin.mb.ca Chat with me on Teams
From: observium observium-bounces@observium.org On Behalf Of Tony Guadagno via observium Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 7:23 AM To: Observium observium@observium.org Cc: Tony Guadagno tonyg@guadagno.org Subject: [Observium] need for a new support system, email lists are too limiting
Hi, as the recent 2 questions have shown (ldaps auth and ping only device monitoring) users have the same questions over and over. Currently, this system Observium uses for email lists (imho) is not cutting it. There is no place (that I now of) that we can search for old solutions, the emails don’t seem to be archived anywhere.
Have you considered switching off this to a discussion board software? I think it would be better for all.
Just my 2 cents. tony _______________________________________________ observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
participants (4)
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Adam Thompson -
adama＠observium.org
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Tony Guadagno