Hi all,
I would just like to share my experience with the attitude of Adam towards general minor web-interface issue reported by a paying customer (me).
I've reported that the OSPF stats look very confusing and provided a screenshot which shows the issue. The inital response I got was "jira is not for general complaining".
My answer was:
"Where do we do so, then?
Now that Observium is paid, we deserve some proper attention to problems, at least.... Not just the close-it-as-fast-as-you-can attitude you have so far....
Also, I'm more than willing to fix it myself by looking at the BGP code, so was jast curios if there is any plan to already rework the OSPF pages, as what is seen on the screenshot is really of no use - and I guess your opinion is the same as well."
Which resulted in these comments from Tom Laermans and Adam Armstrong: "I believe you are confused about what exactly it is that you paid for." "You're definitely doing the right thing to make sure we add the features you want..."
And then the issue was completely deleted....
So, I'd like to point these things:
* why do we get such an attitude against the money kindly "asked" from us? Being a kickstarter supporter for the alerting system, I kind of felt being lied to, since the Observium developers decided that one has to get a license to receive the full functionality which the funding was raised for in the first place... Anyways, I understand the need for more revenue, but not the attitude at all.
* this is in no way requesting a new feature. Is just a report, plus marked as of minor importance, which shows a feature already available in Observium being kind-of unusable. This makes me completely not understand the way developers behaved.
* i've asked Adam in a personal e-mail what's the reason for this attitude. Since he did not get the guts to reply, I hope he does it here. I'd very much want to know what I've done wrong to provoke such an attitude.
* this is not the first time one of the developers would say "idiot" to a (paying) user. So go ahead, shoot me.
Thank you for your time and sorry about the need to post this here.
Kind regards, - D.
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Adam Armstrong (JIRA) jira@observium.org Date: 2013/11/3 Subject: [OBS-JIRA] (OBSERVIUM-571) OSPF stats are a mess To: dokov@silistra.tv
Adam Armstronghttp://jira.observium.org/secure/ViewProfile.jspa?name=adamadeleted [image: Bug] OBSERVIUM-571 *OSPF stats are a mess* http://jira.observium.org/browse/OBSERVIUM-571 This message is automatically generated by JIRA. If you think it was sent incorrectly, please contact your JIRA administrators For more information on JIRA, see: http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira
Oh man, you guys never learn...
On 2013-11-03 17:50, Doychin Dokov wrote:
Hi all,
I would just like to share my experience with the attitude of Adam towards general minor web-interface issue reported by a paying customer (me).
I've reported that the OSPF stats look very confusing and provided a screenshot which shows the issue. The inital response I got was "jira is not for general complaining".
My answer was:
"Where do we do so, then?
Now that Observium is paid, we deserve some proper attention to problems, at least.... Not just the close-it-as-fast-as-you-can attitude you have so far....
Also, I'm more than willing to fix it myself by looking at the BGP code, so was jast curios if there is any plan to already rework the OSPF pages, as what is seen on the screenshot is really of no use - and I guess your opinion is the same as well."
Which resulted in these comments from Tom Laermans and Adam Armstrong: "I believe you are confused about what exactly it is that you paid for." "You're definitely doing the right thing to make sure we add the features you want..."
And then the issue was completely deleted....
So, I'd like to point these things:
- why do we get such an attitude against the money kindly "asked" from
us? Being a kickstarter supporter for the alerting system, I kind of felt being lied to, since the Observium developers decided that one has to get a license to receive the full functionality which the funding was raised for in the first place... Anyways, I understand the need for more revenue, but not the attitude at all.
- this is in no way requesting a new feature. Is just a report, plus
marked as of minor importance, which shows a feature already available in Observium being kind-of unusable. This makes me completely not understand the way developers behaved.
- i've asked Adam in a personal e-mail what's the reason for this
attitude. Since he did not get the guts to reply, I hope he does it here. I'd very much want to know what I've done wrong to provoke such an attitude.
- this is not the first time one of the developers would say "idiot"
to a (paying) user. So go ahead, shoot me.
Thank you for your time and sorry about the need to post this here.
Kind regards,
- D.
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: ADAM ARMSTRONG (JIRA) jira@observium.org Date: 2013/11/3 Subject: [OBS-JIRA] (OBSERVIUM-571) OSPF stats are a mess To: dokov@silistra.tv
Adam Armstrong [1] deleted OBSERVIUM-571
OSPF STATS ARE A MESS [2]
This message is automatically generated by JIRA. If you think it was sent incorrectly, please contact your JIRA administrators For more information on JIRA, see: http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira [3]
Links:
[1] http://jira.observium.org/secure/ViewProfile.jspa?name=adama [2] http://jira.observium.org/browse/OBSERVIUM-571 [3] http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
What is it to learn, Adam, ....?
2013/11/3 Adam Armstrong adama@memetic.org
Oh man, you guys never learn...
On 2013-11-03 17:50, Doychin Dokov wrote:
Hi all,
I would just like to share my experience with the attitude of Adam towards general minor web-interface issue reported by a paying customer (me).
I've reported that the OSPF stats look very confusing and provided a screenshot which shows the issue. The inital response I got was "jira is not for general complaining".
My answer was:
"Where do we do so, then?
Now that Observium is paid, we deserve some proper attention to problems, at least.... Not just the close-it-as-fast-as-you-can attitude you have so far....
Also, I'm more than willing to fix it myself by looking at the BGP code, so was jast curios if there is any plan to already rework the OSPF pages, as what is seen on the screenshot is really of no use - and I guess your opinion is the same as well."
Which resulted in these comments from Tom Laermans and Adam Armstrong: "I believe you are confused about what exactly it is that you paid for." "You're definitely doing the right thing to make sure we add the features you want..."
And then the issue was completely deleted....
So, I'd like to point these things:
- why do we get such an attitude against the money kindly "asked" from
us? Being a kickstarter supporter for the alerting system, I kind of felt being lied to, since the Observium developers decided that one has to get a license to receive the full functionality which the funding was raised for in the first place... Anyways, I understand the need for more revenue, but not the attitude at all.
- this is in no way requesting a new feature. Is just a report, plus
marked as of minor importance, which shows a feature already available in Observium being kind-of unusable. This makes me completely not understand the way developers behaved.
- i've asked Adam in a personal e-mail what's the reason for this
attitude. Since he did not get the guts to reply, I hope he does it here. I'd very much want to know what I've done wrong to provoke such an attitude.
- this is not the first time one of the developers would say "idiot"
to a (paying) user. So go ahead, shoot me.
Thank you for your time and sorry about the need to post this here.
Kind regards,
- D.
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: ADAM ARMSTRONG (JIRA) jira@observium.org Date: 2013/11/3 Subject: [OBS-JIRA] (OBSERVIUM-571) OSPF stats are a mess To: dokov@silistra.tv
Adam Armstrong [1] deleted OBSERVIUM-571
OSPF STATS ARE A MESS [2]
This message is automatically generated by JIRA. If you think it was sent incorrectly, please contact your JIRA administrators For more information on JIRA, see: http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira%5B3]
Links:
[1] http://jira.observium.org/secure/ViewProfile.jspa?name=adama [2] http://jira.observium.org/browse/OBSERVIUM-571 [3] http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
I do not *want* anything. You see a *demand* somewhere?
What's the reason behind your attitude???
Is the report not correct? Does it expect a fix from you?
2013/11/3 Adam Armstrong adama@memetic.org
On 2013-11-03 18:30, Doychin Dokov wrote:
What is it to learn, Adam, ....?
That you're more likely to get what you want by not being an entitled douche.
adam.
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
Would you like a spade?
On 2013-11-03 20:00, Doychin Dokov wrote:
I do not *want* anything. You see a *demand* somewhere?
What's the reason behind your attitude???
Is the report not correct? Does it expect a fix from you?
2013/11/3 Adam Armstrong adama@memetic.org
On 2013-11-03 18:30, Doychin Dokov wrote:
What is it to learn, Adam, ....?
That you're more likely to get what you want by not being an entitled douche.
adam.
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium [1]
Links:
[1] http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
Does the kindergarten have also other activities on its schedule ? :)
On 11/3/13 9:06 PM, Adam Armstrong wrote:
Would you like a spade?
On 2013-11-03 20:00, Doychin Dokov wrote:
I do not *want* anything. You see a *demand* somewhere?
What's the reason behind your attitude???
Is the report not correct? Does it expect a fix from you?
2013/11/3 Adam Armstrong adama@memetic.org
On 2013-11-03 18:30, Doychin Dokov wrote:
What is it to learn, Adam, ....?
That you're more likely to get what you want by not being an entitled douche.
adam.
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium [1]
Links:
[1] http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
Well,
I really have no explanation about this kind of attitude. Adam, if you look at the history of the bugs reported by me (and, most of which, fixed by me as well), you'll see that I'm not reporting stupid/non-existing issues, nor relying on you to fix what i've observed.
The one you deleted today is actually the second neglected issue which you pretend not to exist. At least with the first one you didn't go as far as deleting it completely, maybe because it did not get uncomfortable for you as it (probably) did today.
If it's of anyone's amusement to read your infantile replies, and if you feel like your attitude is on-par with what i've tried to bring discussion about.... I have nothing more to say, really.
Have a great time.
- D.
2013/11/3 Mihai Tanasescu mihai@duras.ro
Does the kindergarten have also other activities on its schedule ? :)
On 11/3/13 9:06 PM, Adam Armstrong wrote:
Would you like a spade?
On 2013-11-03 20:00, Doychin Dokov wrote:
I do not *want* anything. You see a *demand* somewhere?
What's the reason behind your attitude???
Is the report not correct? Does it expect a fix from you?
2013/11/3 Adam Armstrong adama@memetic.org
On 2013-11-03 18:30, Doychin Dokov wrote:
What is it to learn, Adam, ....?
That you're more likely to get what you want by not being an entitled douche.
adam.
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium [1]
Links:
[1] http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
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observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
Maybe take it offline gents? Of at least off list? http://xkcd.com/438/
A simple "Hi $user, this is covered on the wiki here: $url. Thanks for using observium." would be trivial to implement with any email templating system. Even "Sorry, $feature is not currently in the timeline because of $reasons." would be better than getting in an argument.
Cheers
Tom
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As my first message says, I've tried to contact Adam on his personal e-mail to get an idea for the reason for this attitude, to no avail.
One more time, I've not requested a new feature or anything else, I just reported an already-existing part of observium not looking correctly, asked if it's a leftover and planned to be reworked, as the similar BGP stats look fine, and even offered to work on it.
There are no $reasons for such $attitude, and it's not the first time it happens, so I wanted to know why, and how is this considered normal?
- D.
2013/11/3 Tom Henderson tom@pack.co.nz
Maybe take it offline gents? Of at least off list? http://xkcd.com/438/
A simple "Hi $user, this is covered on the wiki here: $url. Thanks for using observium." would be trivial to implement with any email templating system. Even "Sorry, $feature is not currently in the timeline because of $reasons." would be better than getting in an argument.
Cheers
Tom
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observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
On 2013-11-03 21:40, Doychin Dokov wrote:
As my first message says, I've tried to contact Adam on his personal e-mail to get an idea for the reason for this attitude, to no avail.
One more time, I've not requested a new feature or anything else, I just reported an already-existing part of observium not looking correctly, asked if it's a leftover and planned to be reworked, as the similar BGP stats look fine, and even offered to work on it.
There are no $reasons for such $attitude, and it's not the first time it happens, so I wanted to know why, and how is this considered normal?
You did none of those things.
So now i'm going to add liar to the list of reasons why we will no longer accept any communication from you.
adam.
I don't get what his ranting is about.
It's about your attitude in general. I've seen a page which does not look okay, and have reported it. I have already reworked the way it looks, but hopefully it will be commited to another, truly open and free git free.
If only all users were as helpful and pleasant to deal with as you!
I've always been trying to help and fix any issues i've reported. http://jira.observium.org/browse/OBSERVIUM-193 http://jira.observium.org/browse/OBSERVIUM-194 http://jira.observium.org/browse/OBSERVIUM-195 http://jira.observium.org/browse/OBSERVIUM-197 http://jira.observium.org/browse/OBSERVIUM-199 http://jira.observium.org/browse/OBSERVIUM-287 http://jira.observium.org/browse/OBSERVIUM-570
He's since continued ranting off list, evaded my removing him from the
ML to post again, and submitted a complaint with Paypal.
Yes, if I'm getting such an attitude from the developer of something i've backed and paid for, I want my money back! If GBP 100 is not worth anything for you, it's a monthly salary here.
Thankfully we don't have many users like him. :D
Unfortunately that statement is not true. And your attitude has made them fork observium - https://github.com/librenms/librenms
I've already been contacted off-list from a dozen of people who have been blacklisted from you as well.
I'm sorry, but the problem is not on my side.
2013/11/3 Adam Armstrong adama@memetic.org
On 2013-11-03 21:40, Doychin Dokov wrote:
As my first message says, I've tried to contact Adam on his personal e-mail to get an idea for the reason for this attitude, to no avail.
One more time, I've not requested a new feature or anything else, I just reported an already-existing part of observium not looking correctly, asked if it's a leftover and planned to be reworked, as the similar BGP stats look fine, and even offered to work on it.
There are no $reasons for such $attitude, and it's not the first time it happens, so I wanted to know why, and how is this considered normal?
You did none of those things.
So now i'm going to add liar to the list of reasons why we will no longer accept any communication from you.
adam.
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
On 2013-11-03 22:41, Doychin Dokov wrote:
I don't get what his ranting is about.
It's about your attitude in general. I've seen a page which does not look okay, and have reported it.
Yes, but our JIRA is not intended for the reporting of generalized things which are wide in scope.
That's the end of the matter. Everything beyond that is you throwing your toys out of the pram and generally acting like a 5 old who's been told he can't have another candy bar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OblM0Wb0ZRM
adam.
Adam,
Everyone would have seen with their eyes what I have offered, if you have not deleted the issue in jira!
Also, I have pasted my exact reply in my first email, here it is once again:
"Now that Observium is paid, we deserve some proper attention to problems, at least.... Not just the close-it-as-fast-as-you-can attitude you have so far....
Also, I'm more than willing to fix it myself by looking at the BGP code, so was jast curios if there is any plan to already rework the OSPF pages, as what is seen on the screenshot is really of no use - and I guess your opinion is the same as well."
I'm very much sure you have read it, as you and Tom Laermans have replied to it that i have no idea what I have paid for....
So, naming me a "liar" is completely inappropriate, and is a true confirmation about your inability to communicate normally with people. You are digging observium's grave.
- D.
2013/11/3 Doychin Dokov dokov@silistra.tv
As my first message says, I've tried to contact Adam on his personal e-mail to get an idea for the reason for this attitude, to no avail.
One more time, I've not requested a new feature or anything else, I just reported an already-existing part of observium not looking correctly, asked if it's a leftover and planned to be reworked, as the similar BGP stats look fine, and even offered to work on it.
There are no $reasons for such $attitude, and it's not the first time it happens, so I wanted to know why, and how is this considered normal?
- D.
2013/11/3 Tom Henderson tom@pack.co.nz
Maybe take it offline gents? Of at least off list? http://xkcd.com/438/
A simple "Hi $user, this is covered on the wiki here: $url. Thanks for using observium." would be trivial to implement with any email templating system. Even "Sorry, $feature is not currently in the timeline because of $reasons." would be better than getting in an argument.
Cheers
Tom
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Fuck off, cuntmuppet.
Either read what's come before, or say nothing.
FUCKING HELL.
On 2013-11-03 20:52, Tom Henderson wrote:
Maybe take it offline gents? Of at least off list? http://xkcd.com/438/ [1]
A simple "Hi $user, this is covered on the wiki here: $url. Thanks for using observium." would be trivial to implement with any email templating system. Even "Sorry, $feature is not currently in the timeline because of $reasons." would be better than getting in an argument.
Cheers
Tom
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Links:
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Adam, you do KNOW, what if you keep telling stupid people to became smart they aren't become smart any sooner?
You always complain how "everyone" waste your time with silly requests, but you are just here wasting time by yourself, you know that right?
Or its just you period start again, and we need treat you gently? :-D
On 04.11.2013 1:43, Adam Armstrong wrote:
Fuck off, cuntmuppet.
Either read what's come before, or say nothing.
FUCKING HELL.
I am not a paying users so I am not commenting as such, but I will chime as I have seen this before with many other open source projects.
You are receiving the poor treatment from the Observium team because of all the self-righteous assholes who came before you. Like many (most?) open source projects developers end up spending a great deal of time dealing with users who either do nothing more than complain or claim they fixed everything by changing a “1” to a “0”.
All those users who come before us (us = those of us who actually appreciate the code and developers time) have put the developers on constant guard which leaves them to assume we are all a bunch worthless sounding horns come to prey on their project.
A LOT of open source projects have shutdown for this exact reason, too many assholes to the point where the developers say “fuck it” and just move the project either away from the crowd or just throw in the towel in all together.
If you haven’t already, you should look back through the mailer about all the moaning and bitching done by users when Observium noted they are going to a paid platform. Apparently $150/year is completely outrages…
@Observium guys, not all of us are complete* assholes J
*keyword, some of us are still a little rough around the edges :P
-Lane
*From:* observium [mailto:observium-bounces@observium.org] *On Behalf Of *Doychin Dokov *Sent:* Sunday, November 3, 2013 12:51 PM *To:* observium@observium.org *Subject:* [Observium] Fwd: Regarding developers attitude...
Hi all,
I would just like to share my experience with the attitude of Adam towards general minor web-interface issue reported by a paying customer (me).
I've reported that the OSPF stats look very confusing and provided a screenshot which shows the issue. The inital response I got was "jira is not for general complaining".
My answer was:
"Where do we do so, then?
Now that Observium is paid, we deserve some proper attention to problems, at least.... Not just the close-it-as-fast-as-you-can attitude you have so far....
Also, I'm more than willing to fix it myself by looking at the BGP code, so was jast curios if there is any plan to already rework the OSPF pages, as what is seen on the screenshot is really of no use - and I guess your opinion is the same as well."
Which resulted in these comments from Tom Laermans and Adam Armstrong:
"I believe you are confused about what exactly it is that you paid for."
"You're definitely doing the right thing to make sure we add the features you want..."
And then the issue was completely deleted....
So, I'd like to point these things:
* why do we get such an attitude against the money kindly "asked" from us? Being a kickstarter supporter for the alerting system, I kind of felt being lied to, since the Observium developers decided that one has to get a license to receive the full functionality which the funding was raised for in the first place... Anyways, I understand the need for more revenue, but not the attitude at all.
* this is in no way requesting a new feature. Is just a report, plus marked as of minor importance, which shows a feature already available in Observium being kind-of unusable. This makes me completely not understand the way developers behaved.
* i've asked Adam in a personal e-mail what's the reason for this attitude. Since he did not get the guts to reply, I hope he does it here. I'd very much want to know what I've done wrong to provoke such an attitude.
* this is not the first time one of the developers would say "idiot" to a (paying) user. So go ahead, shoot me.
Thank you for your time and sorry about the need to post this here.
Kind regards,
- D.
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *Adam Armstrong (JIRA)* jira@observium.org Date: 2013/11/3 Subject: [OBS-JIRA] (OBSERVIUM-571) OSPF stats are a mess To: dokov@silistra.tv
Adam Armstronghttp://jira.observium.org/secure/ViewProfile.jspa?name=adamadeleted OBSERVIUM-571
*OSPF stats are a mess* http://jira.observium.org/browse/OBSERVIUM-571
This message is automatically generated by JIRA. If you think it was sent incorrectly, please contact your JIRA administrators For more information on JIRA, see: http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira
Hi,
On 03/11/2013 19:40, Lane Eckley wrote:
You are receiving the poor treatment from the Observium team because of all the self-righteous assholes who came before you. Like many (most?) open source projects developers end up spending a great deal of time dealing with users who either do nothing more than complain or claim they fixed everything by changing a "1" to a "0".
A LOT of open source projects have shutdown for this exact reason, too many assholes to the point where the developers say "fuck it" and just move the project either away from the crowd or just throw in the towel in all together.
Thanks for this extended version of "fuck off derptwat", this is a pretty true (if only part of it) representation of reality for many projects.
If you haven't already, you should look back through the mailer about all the moaning and bitching done by users when Observium noted they are going to a paid platform. Apparently $150/year is completely outrages...
If there is enough interest, I'll also offer a yearly price for users to be able to be entitled douchebags.
If you look at it from afar, it looks a bit like $150.00/year. But don't come too close to the monitor ;)
@Observium guys, not all of us are complete* assholes J
We keep lists! ;>
I'll not comment at the actual issue at hand, my exact comment on Jira has been posted in this thread multiple times now, and it's just as true as it was 2 hours ago.
Tom
On 2013-11-03 22:13, Tom Laermans wrote:
@Observium guys, not all of us are complete* assholes J We keep lists! ;>
I'll not comment at the actual issue at hand, my exact comment on Jira has been posted in this thread multiple times now, and it's just as true as it was 2 hours ago.
Yeah, I don't get what his ranting was about. Jira is for reporting bugs and submission of patches, not for clogging up with the collective hopes and desires of the entire user base.
The Jira backlog has been slowly growing for 2 years with these kinds of generalized things, I tend to remove the ones which have least merit, lest we get depressed at the rate of issue growth.
He seemed to just have gone off the deep end because someone told him no. In English we have an expression for this, it's called "throwing your toys out of the pram".
adam.
p.s.
haters gonna hate, yolo, etc.
Hi Adam,
Where would the best place be to post feature requests?
What about opening forums for Observium and making the mailing list private to some degree?
Lane Eckley Vice President of Operations Hypernia Corporation
Email: lane@staff.hypernia.com Desk: 1.305.390.2124 Cell Phone: 1.305.308.0526 Email to SMS: 3125022380@vzwpix.com leckley01 laneeckley www.hypernia.com
Confidentiality Note: The information contained in this transmission is legally privileged and confidential, intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Thank you!
-----Original Message----- From: observium [mailto:observium-bounces@observium.org] On Behalf Of Adam Armstrong Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2013 5:22 PM To: Observium Network Observation System Subject: Re: [Observium] Fwd: Regarding developers attitude...
On 2013-11-03 22:13, Tom Laermans wrote:
@Observium guys, not all of us are complete* assholes J We keep lists! ;>
I'll not comment at the actual issue at hand, my exact comment on Jira has been posted in this thread multiple times now, and it's just as true as it was 2 hours ago.
Yeah, I don't get what his ranting was about. Jira is for reporting bugs and submission of patches, not for clogging up with the collective hopes and desires of the entire user base.
The Jira backlog has been slowly growing for 2 years with these kinds of generalized things, I tend to remove the ones which have least merit, lest we get depressed at the rate of issue growth.
He seemed to just have gone off the deep end because someone told him no. In English we have an expression for this, it's called "throwing your toys out of the pram".
adam.
p.s.
haters gonna hate, yolo, etc. _______________________________________________ observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
On 2013-11-03 23:18, Lane Eckley wrote:
Hi Adam,
Where would the best place be to post feature requests?
There is no really good place. You can post ideas to the list and see if anyone is interested in accepting it.
We all have lists of things we want to do as long as Mr Tickle's arms.
Bug reports are helpful, feature requests just mount up and never get done, and would eventually cause us to start ignoring JIRA.
There is nothing more demotivating that loading up JIRA to find some bugs to fix and just finding reams of people asking for features which involve days of coding.
What about opening forums for Observium and making the mailing list private to some degree?
One of the suggestions when we set up the subscription scheme was to take the mailing list private, or have a separate mailing list.
I'm not sure that's a good idea, as we still get reports and questions from new users who haven't yet subscribed.
I actually do look to see if people have paid before helping too much, though ;)
adam.
P.S.
NO, THERE IS STILL NO SUPPORT INCLUDED IN SUBSCRIPTION. :P
http://youtu.be/kQFKtI6gn9Y#t=80
Can't we all just get along? 8)
On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Adam Armstrong adama@memetic.org wrote:
On 2013-11-03 23:18, Lane Eckley wrote:
Hi Adam,
Where would the best place be to post feature requests?
There is no really good place. You can post ideas to the list and see if anyone is interested in accepting it.
We all have lists of things we want to do as long as Mr Tickle's arms.
Bug reports are helpful, feature requests just mount up and never get done, and would eventually cause us to start ignoring JIRA.
There is nothing more demotivating that loading up JIRA to find some bugs to fix and just finding reams of people asking for features which involve days of coding.
What about opening forums for Observium and making the mailing list
private to some degree?
One of the suggestions when we set up the subscription scheme was to take the mailing list private, or have a separate mailing list.
I'm not sure that's a good idea, as we still get reports and questions from new users who haven't yet subscribed.
I actually do look to see if people have paid before helping too much, though ;)
adam.
P.S.
NO, THERE IS STILL NO SUPPORT INCLUDED IN SUBSCRIPTION. :P
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
Hi,
The mailing list, or Jira, but: - Keep it short and to the point, without whining (yes, not everyone does that, got the message ;) but in the light of the current thread...)
- Something like, for example, "There is no support for ISIS" is not a bug. It's a very large feature request, and does not belong on Jira without an attached (start of) patch.
- Whining is not an acceptable solution on a bugtracker; constructive comments are. It mainly is for actual issues that you encounter with existing functionality. Even then, if we don't have such a device, or if we don't understand the request, or are simply swamped, an attached patch is probably the way to go.
- If you can't provide code, but the issue is important to you, sponsored development may be an option - or you wait until someone else sponsors it or contributes code.
- The fee for the subscription edition is exactly that, access to the code. This is also detailed on the page on the website about the different editions. There is no support included. If you would like paid support, please contact me in private and we'll see if we can work something out, in case multiple users are interested. Do note that this means support, and possibly bugfixes, but no new features without sponsoring additional development time.
Regarding contributing code, it's probably best to discuss things on IRC before acting on them; either for new feature requests, or things you'd like to write yourself (as detailed on the wiki).
A forum is a very very useless and annoying way to keep track of anything, it was tried before and closed down. If we ever open one up, you can be sure none of the developers will look at it.
And yes, a Jira tracker with 17000 things in them means none of them will get fixed - this is simply overwelming. So unlike the diskspace argument, it really is best to keep the number of open issues there as low as possible. I've assigned a number of issues to myself, so I can have a small overview of what I need to do - however, they've been open for a while; I can't imagine what Adam sees when he logs in.
Reading and writing length replies to rants like the one in question here just wastes time; we have other things to do than Observium, and the precious time we can give it should be spent on improving it rather than dealing with whining entitled users.
I hope you (as in all users) appreciate the work we put into this software and like the strides we made in quality, usability and speed over the last year. It's obviously not perfect, but really, trolling, crying and overreacting will not help things along.
Tom
On 11/04/2013 12:18 AM, Lane Eckley wrote:
Hi Adam,
Where would the best place be to post feature requests?
What about opening forums for Observium and making the mailing list private to some degree?
Lane Eckley Vice President of Operations Hypernia Corporation
Email: lane@staff.hypernia.com Desk: 1.305.390.2124 Cell Phone: 1.305.308.0526 Email to SMS: 3125022380@vzwpix.com leckley01 laneeckley www.hypernia.com
Confidentiality Note: The information contained in this transmission is legally privileged and confidential, intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Thank you!
-----Original Message----- From: observium [mailto:observium-bounces@observium.org] On Behalf Of Adam Armstrong Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2013 5:22 PM To: Observium Network Observation System Subject: Re: [Observium] Fwd: Regarding developers attitude...
On 2013-11-03 22:13, Tom Laermans wrote:
@Observium guys, not all of us are complete* assholes J We keep lists! ;>
I'll not comment at the actual issue at hand, my exact comment on Jira has been posted in this thread multiple times now, and it's just as true as it was 2 hours ago.
Yeah, I don't get what his ranting was about. Jira is for reporting bugs and submission of patches, not for clogging up with the collective hopes and desires of the entire user base.
The Jira backlog has been slowly growing for 2 years with these kinds of generalized things, I tend to remove the ones which have least merit, lest we get depressed at the rate of issue growth.
He seemed to just have gone off the deep end because someone told him no. In English we have an expression for this, it's called "throwing your toys out of the pram".
adam.
p.s.
haters gonna hate, yolo, etc. _______________________________________________ observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium _______________________________________________ observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
On 2013-11-04 12:00, Tom Laermans wrote:
Hi,
And yes, a Jira tracker with 17000 things in them means none of them will get fixed - this is simply overwelming. So unlike the diskspace argument, it really is best to keep the number of open issues there as low as possible. I've assigned a number of issues to myself, so I can have a small overview of what I need to do - however, they've been open for a while; I can't imagine what Adam sees when he logs in.
Currently 165 open issues.
http://alpha.memetic.org/~adama/snaps/ab7ox6y4lz.png
The majority of the things between the red and green lines (still open) are either generalised requests like this, or things that aren't so easy to deal with, things related to equipment I don't have, for example.
I don't think it's helpful to have issues for things everyone knows about. OSPF/Pseudowire/VRF stuff is all quite broken, but I don't need or want issues for them, as they're not something I can easily work on, as I no longer have access to a large network running these things.
Whilst the subscription is certainly paying to upgrade dinner time from ramen to pot noodles, it's not yet yielding enough to build a development lab. We have access to a bunch of different devices, but nothing useful for inter-device things like routing protocols. (we should really find some large ISP with a lot of old kit and a spare rack to sponsor something like that, I think. Any volunteers? :P)
Reading and writing length replies to rants like the one in question here just wastes time; we have other things to do than Observium, and the precious time we can give it should be spent on improving it rather than dealing with whining entitled users.
Man, since the subscription thing, I've spent more time on email than I ever did writing code!
I hope you (as in all users) appreciate the work we put into this software and like the strides we made in quality, usability and speed over the last year. It's obviously not perfect, but really, trolling, crying and overreacting will not help things along.
As I said earlier, I think almost everyone does. The zealots were a small but vocal minority and seem to have weeded themselves out.
We have a lot of users who submit bugs and patches in a helpful manner, such as Herr Hibler and Mr Custenborder. Mike and yourself were originally just users who submitted a lot of decent patches without creating any hassle. Some people just seem to think that the free software fairies created developers out of open source playdough to be their personal bitches, and seem to act accordingly.
Every day it becomes more apparent to me that Shuttleworth's freshly coined term, The Open Source Tea Party, is especially applicable to that zealous sector of the community.
adam.
Adam, we're a smallish ISP, but have many of the standard Cisco/APC/Netbotz/Mikrotik/Ubiquiti equipment. We'd happily grant you remote access for testing and even have a rack or two we could put some other equipment in..... :-)
Robbie Wright Siuslaw Broadband http://siuslawbroadband.com 541-902-5101
**For support issues, please email support@siuslawbroadband.com.**
On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 9:30 PM, Adam Armstrong adama@memetic.org wrote:
On 2013-11-04 12:00, Tom Laermans wrote:
Hi,
And yes, a Jira tracker with 17000 things in them means none of them will get fixed - this is simply overwelming. So unlike the diskspace argument, it really is best to keep the number of open issues there as low as possible. I've assigned a number of issues to myself, so I can have a small overview of what I need to do - however, they've been open for a while; I can't imagine what Adam sees when he logs in.
Currently 165 open issues.
http://alpha.memetic.org/~adama/snaps/ab7ox6y4lz.png
The majority of the things between the red and green lines (still open) are either generalised requests like this, or things that aren't so easy to deal with, things related to equipment I don't have, for example.
I don't think it's helpful to have issues for things everyone knows about. OSPF/Pseudowire/VRF stuff is all quite broken, but I don't need or want issues for them, as they're not something I can easily work on, as I no longer have access to a large network running these things.
Whilst the subscription is certainly paying to upgrade dinner time from ramen to pot noodles, it's not yet yielding enough to build a development lab. We have access to a bunch of different devices, but nothing useful for inter-device things like routing protocols. (we should really find some large ISP with a lot of old kit and a spare rack to sponsor something like that, I think. Any volunteers? :P)
Reading and writing length replies to rants like the one in question
here just wastes time; we have other things to do than Observium, and the precious time we can give it should be spent on improving it rather than dealing with whining entitled users.
Man, since the subscription thing, I've spent more time on email than I ever did writing code!
I hope you (as in all users) appreciate the work we put into this
software and like the strides we made in quality, usability and speed over the last year. It's obviously not perfect, but really, trolling, crying and overreacting will not help things along.
As I said earlier, I think almost everyone does. The zealots were a small but vocal minority and seem to have weeded themselves out.
We have a lot of users who submit bugs and patches in a helpful manner, such as Herr Hibler and Mr Custenborder. Mike and yourself were originally just users who submitted a lot of decent patches without creating any hassle. Some people just seem to think that the free software fairies created developers out of open source playdough to be their personal bitches, and seem to act accordingly.
Every day it becomes more apparent to me that Shuttleworth's freshly coined term, The Open Source Tea Party, is especially applicable to that zealous sector of the community.
adam. _______________________________________________ observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
I'm not an ISP, but I do have a fully functioning MPLS network with 99% Cisco gear with two F5 load balancers available if there's an interest in getting some data.
From: observium [mailto:observium-bounces@observium.org] On Behalf Of Robbie Wright Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2013 1:27 PM To: Observium Network Observation System Subject: Re: [Observium] Fwd: Regarding developers attitude...
Adam, we're a smallish ISP, but have many of the standard Cisco/APC/Netbotz/Mikrotik/Ubiquiti equipment. We'd happily grant you remote access for testing and even have a rack or two we could put some other equipment in..... :-)
Robbie Wright Siuslaw Broadbandhttp://siuslawbroadband.com 541-902-5101
**For support issues, please email support@siuslawbroadband.commailto:support@siuslawbroadband.com.**
On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 9:30 PM, Adam Armstrong <adama@memetic.orgmailto:adama@memetic.org> wrote: On 2013-11-04 12:00, Tom Laermans wrote: Hi,
And yes, a Jira tracker with 17000 things in them means none of them will get fixed - this is simply overwelming. So unlike the diskspace argument, it really is best to keep the number of open issues there as low as possible. I've assigned a number of issues to myself, so I can have a small overview of what I need to do - however, they've been open for a while; I can't imagine what Adam sees when he logs in.
Currently 165 open issues.
http://alpha.memetic.org/~adama/snaps/ab7ox6y4lz.png
The majority of the things between the red and green lines (still open) are either generalised requests like this, or things that aren't so easy to deal with, things related to equipment I don't have, for example.
I don't think it's helpful to have issues for things everyone knows about. OSPF/Pseudowire/VRF stuff is all quite broken, but I don't need or want issues for them, as they're not something I can easily work on, as I no longer have access to a large network running these things.
Whilst the subscription is certainly paying to upgrade dinner time from ramen to pot noodles, it's not yet yielding enough to build a development lab. We have access to a bunch of different devices, but nothing useful for inter-device things like routing protocols. (we should really find some large ISP with a lot of old kit and a spare rack to sponsor something like that, I think. Any volunteers? :P) Reading and writing length replies to rants like the one in question here just wastes time; we have other things to do than Observium, and the precious time we can give it should be spent on improving it rather than dealing with whining entitled users.
Man, since the subscription thing, I've spent more time on email than I ever did writing code! I hope you (as in all users) appreciate the work we put into this software and like the strides we made in quality, usability and speed over the last year. It's obviously not perfect, but really, trolling, crying and overreacting will not help things along.
As I said earlier, I think almost everyone does. The zealots were a small but vocal minority and seem to have weeded themselves out.
We have a lot of users who submit bugs and patches in a helpful manner, such as Herr Hibler and Mr Custenborder. Mike and yourself were originally just users who submitted a lot of decent patches without creating any hassle. Some people just seem to think that the free software fairies created developers out of open source playdough to be their personal bitches, and seem to act accordingly.
Every day it becomes more apparent to me that Shuttleworth's freshly coined term, The Open Source Tea Party, is especially applicable to that zealous sector of the community.
adam. _______________________________________________ observium mailing list observium@observium.orgmailto:observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
On 2013-11-05 19:26, Michael Sweikata wrote:
I'm not an ISP, but I do have a fully functioning MPLS network with 99% Cisco gear with two F5 load balancers available if there's an interest in getting some data.
We're interested in cisco primarily (other vendors tend to randomly crash when you poke their snmp stack in weird places, so i wouldn't want to go near non-cisco stuff on someone else's network), particularly VRF/Pseudowires, routing protocols and SLA/QoS.
It's most useful to have a couple of devices which are interconnected with eachother, as that's where the interesting routing stuff can be visualised.
We'd be most interested in fairly long-term availability, as one of the issues we've had with these features in the past has been that they fall behind when we make UI and code updates, because we can't update those elements as we have no working system. Because of this it'd probably be preferable to have access to an test/dev instance of observium on a system control by you, rather than trying to pretend that dragging SNMP across the internet is sensible...
adam.
FROM: observium [mailto:observium-bounces@observium.org] ON BEHALF OF Robbie Wright SENT: Tuesday, November 5, 2013 1:27 PM TO: Observium Network Observation System SUBJECT: Re: [Observium] Fwd: Regarding developers attitude...
Adam, we're a smallish ISP, but have many of the standard Cisco/APC/Netbotz/Mikrotik/Ubiquiti equipment. We'd happily grant you remote access for testing and even have a rack or two we could put some other equipment in..... :-)
Robbie Wright
Siuslaw Broadband [3]
541-902-5101
**For support issues, please email support@siuslawbroadband.com.**
On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 9:30 PM, Adam Armstrong adama@memetic.org wrote:
On 2013-11-04 12:00, Tom Laermans wrote:
Hi,
And yes, a Jira tracker with 17000 things in them means none of them will get fixed - this is simply overwelming. So unlike the diskspace argument, it really is best to keep the number of open issues there as low as possible. I've assigned a number of issues to myself, so I can have a small overview of what I need to do - however, they've been open for a while; I can't imagine what Adam sees when he logs in.
Currently 165 open issues.
http://alpha.memetic.org/~adama/snaps/ab7ox6y4lz.png [1]
The majority of the things between the red and green lines (still open) are either generalised requests like this, or things that aren't so easy to deal with, things related to equipment I don't have, for example.
I don't think it's helpful to have issues for things everyone knows about. OSPF/Pseudowire/VRF stuff is all quite broken, but I don't need or want issues for them, as they're not something I can easily work on, as I no longer have access to a large network running these things.
Whilst the subscription is certainly paying to upgrade dinner time from ramen to pot noodles, it's not yet yielding enough to build a development lab. We have access to a bunch of different devices, but nothing useful for inter-device things like routing protocols. (we should really find some large ISP with a lot of old kit and a spare rack to sponsor something like that, I think. Any volunteers? :P)
Reading and writing length replies to rants like the one in question here just wastes time; we have other things to do than Observium, and the precious time we can give it should be spent on improving it rather than dealing with whining entitled users.
Man, since the subscription thing, I've spent more time on email than I ever did writing code!
I hope you (as in all users) appreciate the work we put into this software and like the strides we made in quality, usability and speed over the last year. It's obviously not perfect, but really, trolling, crying and overreacting will not help things along.
As I said earlier, I think almost everyone does. The zealots were a small but vocal minority and seem to have weeded themselves out.
We have a lot of users who submit bugs and patches in a helpful manner, such as Herr Hibler and Mr Custenborder. Mike and yourself were originally just users who submitted a lot of decent patches without creating any hassle. Some people just seem to think that the free software fairies created developers out of open source playdough to be their personal bitches, and seem to act accordingly.
Every day it becomes more apparent to me that Shuttleworth's freshly coined term, The Open Source Tea Party, is especially applicable to that zealous sector of the community.
adam. _______________________________________________ observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium [2]
Links:
[1] http://alpha.memetic.org/~adama/snaps/ab7ox6y4lz.png [2] http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium [3] http://siuslawbroadband.com
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
On 2013-11-05 18:27, Robbie Wright wrote:
Adam, we're a smallish ISP, but have many of the standard Cisco/APC/Netbotz/Mikrotik/Ubiquiti equipment. We'd happily grant you remote access for testing and even have a rack or two we could put some other equipment in..... :-)
We'd definitely be interested in access to dev instance with some devices added. I'm a little wary of Juniper/Brocade kit, as they have a history of service affecting SNMP bugs, but I've found Cisco's SNMP to be pretty rock solid.
I'd tend not to want remote SNMP access, as it's a bit of a security issue, but certainly a small observium instance with a few devices with interesting services added would be useful :)
Thanks, adam.
Oh, c'mon like disk space are expensive.
On 04.11.2013 2:22, Adam Armstrong wrote:
The Jira backlog has been slowly growing for 2 years with these kinds of generalized things, I tend to remove the ones which have least merit, lest we get depressed at the rate of issue growth.
Oh dear.
As if this is about diskspace; please read Adam's message again.
Tom
On 11/04/2013 10:28 AM, Nikolay Shopik wrote:
Oh, c'mon like disk space are expensive.
On 04.11.2013 2:22, Adam Armstrong wrote:
The Jira backlog has been slowly growing for 2 years with these kinds of generalized things, I tend to remove the ones which have least merit, lest we get depressed at the rate of issue growth.
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
It is, it just not verbally mentioned, people hopes need disk space anyway, you know that.
On 04.11.2013 13:54, Tom Laermans wrote:
Oh dear.
As if this is about diskspace; please read Adam's message again.
Tom
On 11/04/2013 10:28 AM, Nikolay Shopik wrote:
Oh, c'mon like disk space are expensive.
On 04.11.2013 2:22, Adam Armstrong wrote:
The Jira backlog has been slowly growing for 2 years with these kinds of generalized things, I tend to remove the ones which have least merit, lest we get depressed at the rate of issue growth.
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
I think this may be confusing russian humour :)
adam.
On 2013-11-04 09:54, Tom Laermans wrote:
Oh dear.
As if this is about diskspace; please read Adam's message again.
Tom
On 11/04/2013 10:28 AM, Nikolay Shopik wrote: Oh, c'mon like disk space are expensive.
On 04.11.2013 2:22, Adam Armstrong wrote: The Jira backlog has been slowly growing for 2 years with these kinds of generalized things, I tend to remove the ones which have least merit, lest we get depressed at the rate of issue growth. _______________________________________________ observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
Observium is made by the developers for the developers.
I would just like to share my experience with the attitude of Adam towards general minor web-interface issue reported by a paying customer (me).
I've reported that the OSPF stats look very confusing and provided a screenshot which shows the issue. The inital response I got was "jira is not for general complaining".
My answer was:
"Where do we do so, then?
Now that Observium is paid, we deserve some proper attention to problems, at least.... Not just the close-it-as-fast-as-you-can attitude you have so far....
Also, I'm more than willing to fix it myself by looking at the BGP code, so was jast curios if there is any plan to already rework the OSPF pages, as what is seen on the screenshot is really of no use - and I guess your opinion is the same as well."
Which resulted in these comments from Tom Laermans and Adam Armstrong: "I believe you are confused about what exactly it is that you paid for." "You're definitely doing the right thing to make sure we add the features you want..."
And then the issue was completely deleted....
So, I'd like to point these things:
- why do we get such an attitude against the money kindly "asked"
from us? Being a kickstarter supporter for the alerting system, I kind of felt being lied to, since the Observium developers decided that one has to get a license to receive the full functionality which the funding was raised for in the first place... Anyways, I understand the need for more revenue, but not the attitude at all.
- this is in no way requesting a new feature. Is just a report, plus
marked as of minor importance, which shows a feature already available in Observium being kind-of unusable. This makes me completely not understand the way developers behaved.
- i've asked Adam in a personal e-mail what's the reason for this
attitude. Since he did not get the guts to reply, I hope he does it here. I'd very much want to know what I've done wrong to provoke such an attitude.
- this is not the first time one of the developers would say "idiot"
to a (paying) user. So go ahead, shoot me.
Thank you for your time and sorry about the need to post this here.
Kind regards,
- D.
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: ADAM ARMSTRONG (JIRA) jira@observium.org Date: 2013/11/3 Subject: [OBS-JIRA] (OBSERVIUM-571) OSPF stats are a mess To: dokov@silistra.tv
Adam Armstrong [1] deleted OBSERVIUM-571
OSPF STATS ARE A MESS [2]
This message is automatically generated by JIRA. If you think it was sent incorrectly, please contact your JIRA administrators For more information on JIRA, see: http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira [3]
Links:
[1] http://jira.observium.org/secure/ViewProfile.jspa?name=adama [2] http://jira.observium.org/browse/OBSERVIUM-571 [3] http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira
observium mailing list observium@observium.org http://postman.memetic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/observium
participants (11)
-
Adam Armstrong -
Doychin Dokov -
Graeme Davis -
Lane Eckley -
Laurens Vets -
Michael Sweikata -
Mihai Tanasescu -
Nikolay Shopik -
Robbie Wright -
Tom Henderson -
Tom Laermans